Monday, March 23, 2009

Grade Inflation at My Old Stomping Ground



Part I: No It Isn't Because of Better Students

There was a three part article on grade inflation in Duke's student newspaper last week. You won't find a better portrait of the problem of grade inflation on an individual college campus.

It's always a strange thing to read an article when you know a lot about the place and the subject being discussed and especially strange to read an article where you're quoted. Lots of times when that happens, I think the reporter just hasn't portrayed what's really happening very well. That's not the case this time. It's a dead on accurate portrait of the nature of grade inflation at my old stomping ground.

But it left many things out. There are only so many words and so much time. I've decided that this very well done article needs a supplement. This supplement might be two parts long. Here goes.

Duke has garden variety grade inflation for a highly selective institution. Grades are going up at a rate of about 0.1 per decade and the average grade is about 3.45 today. Why are grades rising? For a long time, Duke leadership was in complete denial that grades were rising because Duke faculty were grading easier. The idea was that it was all due to students getting smarter and better. Then they decided that maybe it wasn't due all to better students, but declined to say what else was driving rising grades.

I want to look at this assertion of Duke leadership. What component of rising grades is due to students getting smarter and better?

First off, why is grade inflation important at all? Why care? A grade is just a number. Who cares if the average grade is 3.0 or 3.2 or 3.4 or 3.6? Here's one reason. Grades are so high at Duke that classes often have no life. In many classes, students have little motivation to work hard because they know that just by going through the motions they can get a B+ or better.

I know this from personal experience. The energy in most of my classes couldn't have lit up a 2 watt bulb. The funny thing is that in my student evaluations, students often remarked how energetic my classes were relative to others. I was always amazed by those comments. There must have been corpses instead of students in those other classes. Students simply did not prepare. They did not work. Not all students. But most. The average number of hours Duke students study is 11 per week. That's it. Eleven measly hours a week.

In commenting on this lack of studying and especially on the fact that students at Duke study less in college than they did in high school, the authors of Duke's Campus Life and Learning Project of 2006 state: "In the transition to college, either students are becoming more efficient, or are working less hard at studies (having more demands on their time), or the difficulty of college work is less than high school, which is difficult to believe." It's not difficult to believe that college is easier than high school, actually. If you talk to students, that's exactly what many of them will tell you.

I once confronted Duke's past provost about this problem. We had a friendship for awhile; he said I reminded him of what he was like when he was young. His response to my concerns about the wan level of education we were providing was, "You're right but we're not doing anything that anyone else isn't." He came from Dartmouth. I took his response to indicate that Duke and Dartmouth were very similar. Publicly, in contrast, he was a full time cheerleader for the "rigor" that higher education provided. Privately the first time he taught a class at Duke, he was in a bit of shell shock over the amount of student whining over workload and grades.

The current provost, Peter Lange, is another cheerleader for the "rigor" that higher education provides. We've never had a friendship. As a matter of fact the last time I saw him, he glared at me, then turned his head and walked away. Be that as it may, in the 1990s before he was provost, he truly believed that grades were rising at Duke solely due to increases in student quality. He was delusional, but he was honestly delusional.

When Peter Lange became provost, he decided for some strange reason to try and prove that this relationship between grades and student quality existed. He did this work in 2002.

Some people are talkers. Some people are number crunchers. Peter Lange is a talker and he has no quantitative ability. I'm not saying he's dumb. He just has a blind spot for numbers and science; lots of smart people do. So to try and "prove" that rising grades were due to increases in student quality, Peter Lange needed help. He got some guy in his office to run some Excel spread sheets comparing GPA's and SATs over time. Above are essentially the data he used.

The SATs shown are relative to a baseline; as a condition of my receiving SAT data six years ago, I was told that I couldn't publish them. Here I've done the equivalent of what the Soviet Union used to do with geologic maps prior to publication. They would remove the coordinates. Like them, I've removed the actual values of the SAT scores. I'm not implying that there are similarities between the secrecy and paranoia of the old USSR and Duke leadership. Well, only in a joking sort of way.

Anyway, if you're naive and look at that graph you might think: 1) grades are up; 2) SATs are up; 3) they must be completely related. That's apparently what Peter Lange thought. He didn't do any research about the relationship between SAT scores and GPA. He apparently just decided to wing it. If he had done a little scholarship beforehand - he does have a Ph.D. after all - he would have looked at the data and stopped right then and there. There's a 0.37 rise in GPA. There's less than an 80 point rise in SAT. Those two numbers just don't match up well.

If you look at other studies, SATs and GPAs don't correlate very well and optimistically you can maybe get a 0.14 rise in GPA per 100 point SAT rise. The number is more likely 0.1. Also the admissions office at Duke - like admissions offices elsewhere - is increasingly pressured to cherry pick students on the basis of their high SATs to maintain their high US News ranking; it's likely that the 80 point rise in GPA partly says nothing about increases in student quality.

Plus look at the graph. The average SAT score of the student body rises when grades stay static for many years. The average SAT score then goes static when grades rise. It's a mess. And based on other studies, only about 0.08 of the observed rise can be accounted for by the increases in student quality inferred from SAT scores even if you ignore cherry picking of SAT scores.

Lange had his assistant run some regression analysis on the data. Based on that analysis, Lange made the claim that half of the observed increase in GPA was due to increases in student in quality. How you can say that 1/2 of all the observed GPA rise can be explained by better students on the basis of the data shown above is beyond me. To explain half of the observed SAT rise you'd have to have a 0.25 coefficient between GPA and a 100 point rise in SAT. No one has observed that anywhere. It's fiction.

Let's put it another way. Suppose there were two students at Duke, one with a 1200 SAT and one with a 1400 SAT. What would be the expected GPA difference between the two? I actually have some experience advising Duke students with numbers like these at the freshman and sophomore level. Lange's analysis would say that the expected GPA difference would be 0.5. My experience says the number is about 0.2, which is in line with large data sets that have looked at such relationships elsewhere.

This is what a good relationship between a cause and effect should look like. I've plotted Duke's GPA versus the average private school tuition in the US over time in 2007 dollars. Duke's retail tuition is higher than this, but many students don't pay retail so this probably isn't a bad approximation for the actual average tuition students shell out. The one thing I've done to massage the tuition data is that, rather than plot the outright tuition in a given year, I've used the average tuition that freshmen to seniors first had to face as freshmen. The idea is that everyone responds to the initial sticker shock of tuition more than they respond to subsequent tuition increases.


Essentially the hypothesis being "tested" is that grades at Duke are rising because students are buying better grades. That's a distasteful hypothesis I know. I don't believe that this is actually what is directly driving grade inflation. But it is a far better model for explaining rising grades than better students. It's an amazing linear relationship actually, "explaining" over 97 percent of the variation in grades.

One problem with testing this hypothesis is that we don't really have a control. And we don't really have much variation in changes in tuition.  Tuition and grades were both flat in the 1970s, but we can't shut off tuition rises now and see what happens. It would be an interesting experiment to keep tuition at Duke flat for a decade, though. I don't know if grades would stop rising as a result, but parents sure would be happier.

While the above curves don't prove anything, they are consistent with the hypothesis that grades started to rise at Duke (and nationwide) in the 1980s in part because college costs became burdensome relative to the earning power of Americans. Psychologically, the attitude of the American public toward college changed as a result. They used to defer to the powers that be to do what was best. But once they started to pay all that cash, they started to feel like they were part owners of the institutions their children were attending. If they were paying all that money, they wanted something tangible in return.

Prior to the 1980s, students in academe were acolytes. Since the 1980s, they have been consumers of a product. Academe used to be primarily in the knowledge business. Now it is primarily in the customer satisfaction business. One outcome of that transition is higher grades.

Now getting back to the "students" are better hypothesis; grades are definitely rising at Duke. Here's what happens if you try to plot GPA versus SAT over the time period 1976-2006. It's a bit messy. But if you want you can fit a linear line to it. You would be asserting that a 100 point change in SAT produces a 0.5 change in GPA. You're off in lala land if you choose to make such an assertion.

Want to explain half of the observed GPA by increases in SAT? Then you have to use Lange's coefficient of 0.25. It's a preposterous coefficient. Half of the rise in GPA at Duke is not due to better students. To make such a statement - and Peter Lange has repeatedly made that statement publicly - isn't consistent with either the data or with other studies elsewhere. It's fiction.

Lange certainly isn't the only college administrator in the US to have made claims based on fictional relationships between SAT scores and grades. In other places, the argument sometimes goes something like this. SAT scores have increased x percent. Grades have increased about the same percent. Voila! We have correspondence.

One problem with this kind of analysis is that GPAs are a highly damped indicator of what is happening grade-wise at an institution. For example, over the time period 1970-2006, GPAs increased 18 percent at Duke. SATs increased about 10 percent. So the naive analysis says that about about half of the GPA rise is due to better students. But wait a minute, if you want to compare percentages in an ad hoc way like this, here's another one for you: over that same time period, the frequency of A grades increased by over 100 percent at Duke. Looking it at this way, increases in student quality account for less than ten percent of the observed grade rise. Both analyses are silly, though. Ad hoc comparing of percentages is dumb no matter what measures you use.

In the recent Duke Chronicle report on grade inflation, Peter Lange told the reporter that he would need to analyze the data again before he decided to do anything about grade inflation. Lange is quoted as saying, "We have not looked at this matter in six years. Given the other things going on, we are not doing a major study of it." What would further analysis accomplish, especially considering Lange's obvious ineptitude with analyzing data? What would a "major study" tell him that isn't already obvious?

It's clear Lange and the rest of Duke's leadership don't want to touch this problem. They don't want to do the work. They are far more concerned with "protecting the brand" than with solving substantive problems. As a result, the quality of education at Duke University continues to suffer.

In the last year I was at Duke, a bigwig administrator made a pronouncement at some meeting (I heard this second hand) that I had "no respect for the institution of Duke University." That is absolutely not true. I have a great deal of respect for the institution of Duke and for higher education in general. What I don't respect are leaders who through cravenness and fecklessness run an institution into the ground. With regard to undergraduate education, that is exactly what has happened due to poor leadership at Duke and elsewhere.

But enough finger pointing for now. Can the problem of grade inflation at Duke (and elsewhere) be solved? Definitely. That's what I'll talk about next time.

28 comments:

bdevil12 said...

This article is...well just wrong. As a current Duke student I can attest to the overwhelming difficulty of this institution, much more so than many of the ivy leagues. Yeah are grades are higher but that is simply because the kids here are some of the most intelligent in the world. Even still, it's nearly impossible to receive an A in a class you don't work extremely hard in. I have never met anyone who only studied 11 hours a week and I myself spend an average of 25-30 hrs each week on my classes. To fault a school for having intelligent students is ridiculous and I challenge anyone who doubts the tenacity and academic prowess of anyone at this university to take a course, any course, and get an A. The Duke mentality is to work hard and play hard (and we do the latter extremely well)but there is little to no chance of a decent gpa without a substantial amount of the former. My friends and I have worked harder than we ever have in our life to achieve the success that we have and to receive above average gpas. To have this article suggest otherwise is insulting. So again, I challenge anyone to take a class at this university and try and get an "easy A."

fortyquestions said...

The estimate of 11 hours comes from a Duke sponsored study. I don't make numbers up.

I also don't like anonymous posts. So I won't respond to the substance of the response above although I won't delete it because, unlike most anonymous posts, it comes from someone who seems to be sane.

bdevil12 said...

My name is Zach although I'm not going to change my blogger name for one post. I read where the study came from and I would love to know what gpa those kids who studied 11 hours or more had in comparison to those students who studied considerably more. This is an opinion blog and subsequently; I should not have said that you were wrong as this is not really the issue. With this said, to question the hard work and intelligence of the students here through the eyes of a teacher seems to me to be unfair.I think you'd be impressed if you followed around any group of students from any background for a week and see how hard they work. To say that since students in YOUR class were not energetic they did not prepare is a stretch. Attendance is not mandatory in most courses and if they did not want to learn, they would not go to class. The worst courses here are often the freshman courses of 100 or more students. It is nearly impossible to stay energetic in these types of classes but that in no way means that students do not care. Everyone cares, not caring is not an option, you don't care here, you fail...in my opinion.

fortyquestions said...

If that's a real offer from a real person - follow a group of students around for a week - I'll gladly take it. Seven days. 14-18 hours a day. It would be a learning experience for me, that's for sure. Just so long as I don't have to pay Duke tuition!

Jacco said...

Grades are pretty scientific at Duke. The hard classes are curved to a B-, and letter grades work by standard deviations from the mean. The class itself is benchmarked against a history of Duke scores since the '80s (as we learned in Math 41L/probably 31-32L and a few other courses).

So, since the scoring uses a rubric independent of the current class, and uses acceptable statistical models, how could grade inflation leak in?

Maybe for weak liberal arts courses 11 hours is possible, but anyone on the pre-med/science track suffers to get good grades.

fortyquestions said...

Here are the numbers based on knowledge of the average GPA at Duke today and extrapolation of grades from the 1990s in major areas of study.

Humanities classes' average GPA: 3.6. Social sciences classes' average GPA: 3.4. Engineering classes' average GPA: 3.5. Natural sciences classes' average GPA: 3.2. B- average grades may exist in isolated classes, but on the whole grades are much higher.

The number 11 hours - like all averages - hides highs and lows. There are students that study less than 10 hours a week. There are students that study 20-30 hours a week. That said, the average student studies 11 hours a week and the average student at Duke graduates with a GPA in excess of 3.5. Some work hard for a 3.5. Others don't.

I could say much the same thing for many other schools. Harvard. Yale. Amherst. Dartmouth. The list could go on and on. I'm not picking on Duke here. Inflated grades and low workloads are pervasive in colleges and universities.

What I do notice is that students and parents feel compelled to invent a fiction that this isn't so. They truly want to believe that grading is hard and work loads are high when they aren't.

That said, there are courses which require the same amount of work they always did although they do inflate grades. It is likely that at Duke and many places, classes like organic chemistry are true bears just like always. But how many classes are like that even in a pre-med curriculum? A handful out of 34 or so classes.

I don't understand anonymous posts. If people have things to say that are valuable, they should leave their real full name. If they don't do that then they must not have confidence in what they are writing.

This is the last anonymous post I will respond to on this topic. All others will be deleted.

Max Tabachnik said...

I won't pretend to deny the grade inflation problem or the issue of students' lack of intellectual energy in class. A lot of these issues have become the root of the work hard-play hard culture at Duke. Don't get me wrong, as a rising junior, I love both the social and academic sides of duke, but both are suffering from consumerism.

I too have been guilty of skipping class or coming into an early class less than enthused. I think the greater problem is that the duke culture of excellence has devolved from "work hard-play hard" to "work just hard enough to get by." I have visited plenty of other schools and can attest to the fact that the intellectual atmosphere here for the most part is severely lacking.

Again, I have too often found myself perpetuating the same situation, and I am starting to feel sick at times thinking about it. I have seen my friends using duke as their launchpad into lucrative careers. They treat high grades as something they are entitled to and try to give off the appearance that they get "good grades" and still party hard. The problem is I don't think we are working hard enough. Even though I am working really hard through my math major, I feel like college was a lot tougher back then, based on my parents' and duke alumni accounts.

That being said, most duke students do work hard in their classes. But working hard never used to guarantee an A. Now people are expecting high grades for just putting in the effort, which isn't what college is about. college should be about finding out your limitations. It's about learning and falling for the first time. Nowadays that lesson in humility is being taught later in life (if at all), which isn't necessarily a good thing.

My question is, how can grade inflation be curbed? Students are always going to want to get the top jobs and grad schools. They feel like they should get a premium for being accepted to a top university. I understand this. I wouldn't like to have a 3.5 gpa that I worked my butt off for being dismissed in favor of a 3.7 from UMASS. Name brand has to count for something right?

Unfortunately it's gone too far. grade inflation is now hurting top students at top universities as the line between a 3.6 and a 3.8 gets blurred with 50% of people having over a 3.4. Everyone begins to look the same. I definitely take pride in my 3.5, but I can't help feeling diminished as being "just above average."

fortyquestions said...

Many thanks for your comments, Max. I agree that part of college should be about "finding out your limitations. It's about learning and falling for the first time."

It really is more than about grading. It's about the attitudes of both students and professors in the classroom. Both tend to go through the motions. Students (or their parents) are spending a lot of money. Professors earn a decent salary. Both are capable of doing so much more in terms of education.

Students do get a GPA premium for attending private prestigious schools. In comparison to flagship state schools that premium is about 0.3 (on a four point scale) on average. Some of that premium is deserved. Much of it isn't and I would argue that GPA's at flagship state schools are too high as well. Inflation isn't just a private school phenomenon.

What should be done? I talk about that in Part 2. But what I don't mention in part 2 is that leadership often really believes that students are being challenged and high grades are deserved. They are isolated people, divorced from the classroom, and they tend to delude themselves on many issues including the issue of educational quality. That's a nice way of saying that over time they start to believe their own b.s.

Bringing back real intellectual discovery in a classroom can't generally come from the bottom up. Faculty cannot individually start to raise the bar in their classes and expect to be rewarded for their efforts; in fact they will be punished in terms of enrollments and student evaluations.

That said, here is one suggestion that might influence. Burst the delusional bubble of those on top. If students talked to deans, provosts and presidents and told them outright that they weren't getting the education they deserved, that they wanted to be challenged more, it just might help.

So that's my unsolicited advice to students. If you want more, demand more. Talk to the powers that be and say this isn't good enough.

At Duke, there was a kind of student in my classes that I'd see occasionally. Typically, I'd see them in their senior year. They were very impressive people. Disciplined. Smart. Diligent. When I talked to them after class, they would express disappointment over the lack of academic substance - both in terms of professors' expectations and fellow student dedication - over their years at Duke.

Looking back, I feel I was remiss in not telling those students to say what they were saying to me to the dean. I should have asked them to write letters. I should have asked them to make appointments (and helped them get those appointments) to talk with the dean, the provost and the president and tell them what is really going on in terms of education. Those people need to know. They need to be reminded that there is a difference between the rhetoric they use at graduation and the reality of what goes on in the classroom.

I've only seen one student do something like that. He wrote to my department saying that he was completely unprepared for graduate school and we needed to do a better job. He was right. The response on the part of my department was defensiveness. My feeling at the time was that if more students did what that graduate did, the defensiveness would change to some honest reappraisal.

Max Tabachnik said...

I think that's a great idea. Taking initiative on this issue is something I have not seen among Duke students so far. Aside from the 3-part series in the Chronicle this past spring (which was inconclusive at best), there has been very little mention of the issue. As a current student, I think initiating communication with an administrator would be tough to brush aside.

fortyquestions said...

It would be fabulous if Duke students informally met with deans and the provost and told them what many students and professors know: professors often expect too little and don't take their job very seriously; and students often put out little effort. Those in positions of authority should be reminded of the need to dramatically improve undergraduate class quality. The status quo is rather meager.

When Brodhead became president, I sent him a little note saying I was leaving, but if he could do one thing as president, it should be to make Duke more serious in terms of undergraduate education. A couple of months later, I sent him another little note saying he shouldn't be a wimp. He wrote back that he took my emails seriously, and had no intention of being a wimp.

I'll bypass the wimp issue, but Brodhead has done nothing to improve what everyone I've known in Allen Building has admitted privately is a problem: Duke has a disconnect between its rhetoric and the type of undergraduate education it provides.

My advice is if you actually do this - go to meet the powers that be and ask for more in terms of education - don't be combative, but simply stick to the facts. What has been good in your experience - and certainly there are many good aspects to Duke - and what has been deficient.

awesomeadam said...
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aznyellojersey said...

I've enjoyed the articles and discussion, though a bit late from when they were all written.

I'm curious about your stance, Professor (Emeritus) Rojstaczer, about the implications of readjusting GPAs to a more pre-inflation level, which in Princeton's case is to give less than 35% A's. As you've touched on, I do not think that readjustment will significantly impact the rates of placement for students to professional and post-graduate schools. However I do think that it will continue to perpetuate or worsen the divide between "elite" schools and other schools. While it is important to note quality differences in universities and colleges, I do not think that it is necessarily fair, proper, or correct to assume supremacy of bigger name schools over smaller names, often state schools, such as UNC Chapel Hill, University of Michigan, the University of Washington, or small schools, such as Swarthmore, Reed, etc. On a certain level having all schools use a similar un-inflated GPA ranking (if it were ever possible) only further necessitates the distinction of schools by their reputation and popularity (regardless, or detached, from the actual quality of education). This is implicit in your argument as well as the recent NY Times article regarding Princeton and populism against grade deflation (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/education/31princeton.html). Relying on prestige and social stratification should not be the end result of trying to rebalance GPAs--it goes against the sense of meritocracy that fuels the fight against grade inflation.

I think that fighting grade inflation is important, as is setting high expectations with difficult course loads. I, like other students you mention, can attest to the lack of rigor in many classes--at least a level of rigor expected prior to entering college. Perhaps my expectations are skewed by having attended a relatively prestigious preparatory school, but in some sense I have been underwhelmed by interest and energy for learning. In other instances, both in and out of the classroom, I have been amazed at what students can do.

For your amusement, here is the grade distribution shared by my organic chemistry professor (here at Duke) at the end of a semester:

42.5% Bs
33.3% As
21.8% Cs
<2% below

I'm not sure how that works out with what you think is an ideal distribution, but it definitely jibes with the Princeton ideal.

Alex Chen
Duke University

Stuart said...

Alex,

That distribution is about on average how the sciences at Princeton graded before the university decided to reign in grade inflation. They still grade about the same way. It's the humanities and social sciences that have changed their grading practices over the last few years at Princeton.

My view is that you want to grade in a way that: 1) motivates students that need the external motivation of a grade; 2) rewards outstanding performance and distinguishes it from mediocre achievement; 3) does not penalize a student for attending a class or university with top notch students.

In a class like organic chemistry, students have already gone through the filter of first year science. It's likely that there are very few true slackers in a class like that. Off the top of my head, it looks like a fair distribution for a school like Duke (or Princeton), although I'm guessing that slightly more than two percent of the class probably does little more than fog a mirror. If it were me, I'd likely raise the D and F grades up to about four percent or so total and drop down the percentage of C's.

The issue of inter-institutional grade variability that you bring up is an important one. Right now, private schools grade 0.1 to 0.2 higher on a 4.0 scale than public schools for a given quality of student. That's simply not fair to those that cannot afford to attend private school.

Oh, I'm not emeritus. I'm simply retired faculty. I didn't ask for nor did I want that title.

aznyellojersey said...

Any ideas on how to accommodate for such variability?

Alex

fortyquestions said...

That variability is already being, more or less, handled in an ad hoc way. Schools that get better students tend to grade higher. It's just that virtually everyone grades higher than they should. There are also penalties for those that attend science and engineering schools since they grade tougher. Then there is the false GPA bump that kids who attend private schools get.

In summary, we need to lower GPAs by about 0.2 to 0.3 for almost all private schools and by about 0.1 to 0.2 for most public schools. Public science and engineering schools can pretty much grade like they are grading now. Such a grading system would likely be stringent enough to motivate students, allow for the identification of outstanding performers, and remove current artificial incentives for attending private liberal arts colleges and universities.

fortyquestions said...

I just noticed - as per usual - weird grammatical errors in my comments above. But this isn't a publication, the meaning of my twisted words is easy to see, and I can't figure out how to edit comments. So those that read this thread will just have to live with my strange, Yiddish-influenced English.

tblalbert said...
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tblalbert said...

tblalbert said...

This article is...well just wrong.

As a current Duke student I can attest to the overwhelming difficulty of this institution, much more so than many of the ivy leagues.

(Detect no bias here, though, the author's argument is supported by data, what is yours? Right, anecdotal conjecture, very nice)

Yeah are grades are higher but that is simply because the kids here are some of the most intelligent in the world.

(I see you've completely missed the point of the article, oh and by the way, it's "OUR grades are higher," not "are," thanks for the delicious irony).

Even still, it's nearly impossible to receive an A in a class you don't work extremely hard in. I have never met anyone who only studied 11 hours a week and I myself spend an average of 25-30 hrs each week on my classes.

(That's it! Thirty measly hours a week? What are you a part-time community college student? At William and Mary, a school which employs grade DEflation, I may add, students with 130-plus IQs study 50-80 hours a week and still pull in mediocre grades!)

You're stupidity has proven the author's point splendidly, bravo. To the author, thanks for the professional and well-researched post.
Troy

fortyquestions said...

This post just won't die. I'm guessing it's because it focuses on just one institution. At any rate, I don't want to get involved in an online knife fight between two posters. So I will say nothing.

Jay said...

Another current Duke student here-- Duke is hard in my opinion, really hard-- the people that make good grades deserve them. Just anecdotal evidence but I was the valedictorian of my HS in NC and chose to attend Duke while almost all of my friends went to public institutions. Despite being more academically prepared and outscoring them by more than 100 points on the SAT, most of my friends in similar fields at state schools have better GPAs...and I can't believe its due to effort/ability. I actually got to see an practice intro econ test at one of the schools and was shocked at its simplicity compared to an Econ51 midterm.

As for the work hard, play hard discussion at Duke I think thats mostly positive. Duke is more pre-professional than their ivy peers and thats just part of the school's character. Also, the party atmosphere where students get drunk 3-4 nights a week has been a part of Duke for ages- students are still able to get their work done and those with high GPAs definitely deserve them.

fortyquestions said...

The above letter by "Jay" looks like some fake thing. There's "Duke is hard...really hard" and then there's the "students get drunk 3-4 nights a week" line. Maybe the writer is real and was drunk when he wrote it.

As for the rest of the anonymous post, I'll refrain from responding, except to note that one thing education research has done a somewhat decent job of looking at is the difference between intro classes at a wide variety of institutions from junior colleges on up. What they've found is that that the value added by each class is independent of school. The idea that at a place like Duke or Brown, Intro Econ classes are significantly more difficult in comparison to UNC (or William and Mary or Virginia Tech) just doesn't hold water. Intro Econ is Intro Econ.

Students at places like Duke and Brown like to believe that they are getting a vastly superior education for all their money. There are no data out there to show that is the case. At Duke and Brown, you have the same research obsessed faculty largely uninterested in undergraduate education as you do at every research-focused school, public or private. There are advantages to going to a private big-name university, but in terms of actual education, the improvement over what you'd get elsewhere is minor.

At Duke, grades are higher (the average student graduates with an A- GPA) partly because it's private (you get about a 0.1 to 0.3 GPA boost in exchange for paying all that cash) and partly because its students are better than most. That grading pattern - higher grades for private schools, higher grades at institutions with better students - is present across the nation. Grade inflation is also present across the nation.

Donald said...
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Donald said...
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fortyquestions said...

The quality of discourse has degraded considerably as of late. This last poster needs to learn how to frame an argument.

Please get and use real data. Avoid cliches. Do not try to substitute serial insults for reasoned thought. It also helps credibility to use your real full name.

Max said...

Donald, it's ironic how egregiously guilty you are of your own accusations regarding this blog post.

fortyquestions said...

I encountered many wonderful students at Duke. About one third of them were truly impressive. Another third weren't academic all stars, but they were nice people to have in class and even talk to after class. Then there was the bottom third. I will refrain from listing their deficiencies.

My experiences at Duke led me to realize that by catering to that bottom third, we were penalizing the best students. We weren't giving them the education they deserved. For me, that compromise was painful.

There are certainly many classes at Duke where students are challenged (and the bottom third of the student body stays away from those classes). On average, though, that isn't the case, and that's a shame.

Me said...

I find this post interesting, especially since one of my classmates and I were discussing this issue recently. I go to Duke and, despite the fact that it might sounds like sour grapes coming from a current Duke student, I honestly don't think grade inflation here is as bad as you'd say. I'm a BME/Bio/premed student and I've never only worked 11 hours a week. And I don't know anyone who does. Granted, I know statistics don't have to match up on a case by case basis and as an engineering/science/premed student I'm kind of self-selecting to be among people who will work hard, but still, that number rings a little too low for me.

I won't disagree that there are definitely people who seem to tout how difficult Duke is and then write about how they can go and get drunk every weekend. And in their case, it begs the question of whether the institution is actually challenging them, or in the process of post alcoholic binge recovery is taking a great toll on their studies.

However, I would like to say that my friends and most of the people in my classes study a lot, as well as do other things outside of class. I volunteer at the hospital, do research at a lab, participate actively in clubs, and serve as an officer in a few organizations as well, and I just finished my freshman year here. I would say that my course load here is heavy, but that I earned every A that I've gotten through a lot of studying and hard work. I've never had a professor that thinks an A average is acceptable for a class, and I'd like to see who has. Maybe in small seminars or something, especially freshmen seminars and writing 20 classes this may be the norm, but my freshman year I took an economics seminar where the professor didn't expect anything less than the best from us. We couldn't get by on writing fluff or by asking questions that were clearly just asked to get a good participation grade: he'd immediately call us out in front of everyone. And if you look at the current requirements for Dean’s List and Dean’s List with Distinction, as well as the cutoffs for Latin Honors, I think you can see that it’s not exactly a walk in the park to get to be the top of your class. I think Dean’s List with Distinction this year requires (for both Pratt and Trinity) a perfect 4.0, but I guess the question remains of how many people got that 4.0 and in light of that information what does a 4.0 at any prestigious university mean?

But this is an interesting and well written article, especially coming from an old professor’s point of view. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!

fortyquestions said...

That's a very thoughtful piece. Nationwide, STEM students do study more and get lower grades relative to other students as a result of their taking so many science classes. How much more do they study on average? When I was arguing against the original implementation of Curriculum 2000 because I thought it would hurt science students (and it did; a good number of them had to enroll in summer school in order to graduate within four years), I was shown data that STEM students at Duke study only about two hours more per week than Duke averages. I didn't believe it. But that difference, two hours, shows up in University of California data and in the national data of Babcock and Marks.

There are certainly STEM students that study more than 13 hours a week. Averages mask highs and lows. There are certainly STEM and non-STEM students who don't get wasted regularly and do a lot of interesting stuff during their non-school hours. I met them. They were a lot of fun to teach and be around.

But the fact is that there are many students who study much less than 11 hours a week, get wasted regularly, and still, because of grade inflation, manage to graduate with GPAs in excess of 3.5. Those students bring down the level of education in many classes. That's a shame. Duke should be challenging the best and brightest. When it doesn't it's wasting talent, time and money.